– Hello. Hello, welcome. Welcome, I’ve given you the option of turning on your microphone and camera. So feel free to do that. This is an interactive workshop. Was as interactive as you were like at least anyway. So those of you who don’t know my name is Natalie Bramble. It’s fabulous to have you on, if you would like to jump in and be on the screen, all you have to do is look at the top of your page that you can see, and you should see a microphone icon, and you should see a video icon. So if you’d like to join in, and in the conversation personally, rather than using chat, feel free to turn the microphone on and or your video as well, I’ve enabled that. So you should be able to do that if you would like. Just to share with you that the session is recorded, you would have seen that at the entry, we do provide these content in the library for members as well. So you actually be able to go through and have a look at this as a course and get a certificate as well, a little later do refresh or share with others. So great to have you here. In the public chat, I’m going to pop by a little message, I want to say, hi, everyone. And you’ll say that there we go, that coming up, there we are. So feel free in the public chat to say hi as well. I’ll just quickly run through how this works for those of you who might be joining us for the first time we put a couple first-timers here. If you wanted to chat with me, ask a question, I’ve enabled the public chat. So you should be able to, if you just look for the chat, you’ll be able to actually, say hi to each other, ask public questions. If you would like, if you’ve got a question that you’d like to ask privately, you can also click on the private and you can ask a question directly to me, you’ll be able to chat with me, or I think, sorry, it says present a chat I think. So I’ll just double check that is up. Yep. Beautiful. So you’ll be able to chat directly with me. So, if there’s a question that you want to ask so you don’t necessary want to ask everybody, feel free to, oh, hi, Nicholas. Great to see you. If there’s a question that you want to ask me, but you don’t necessarily want to ask if here on, feel free just to under the presenters, I think it is on your view. Just ask that question and all then read that at, without attributing, who that comes from. So tonight we are talking about five tips for effective meetings, and it’s great to have you along. We’ve got a few joining us even for as far away the WI, it’s already five o’clock over there. So it’s the end of the day. So great to have you with. And then we’ve got some others, like some people are joining us from New South Wales who it’s about seven o’clock, I think, isn’t it? Yeah seven o’clock tonight. So great to have you with us. We’re trying a few different times. So for those joining us, if there’s any particular day or time that you prefer to run some ma or have some workshops please let us know. We’re more than happy to factor those in. So without any further ado, let’s get started talking about effective meetings. So how I’m going to run it all. I’ve got a few areas that I’ll open for discussions. I’m going to get to sort of share some of that knowledge. And then I’m going to wipe it up with discussions. We’re really wanting to make this as interactive as possible to really get those questions that you have answered and to give you some information. So as I’m going through anything pops to mind, pop it in the chat and ask why. And as I said, for those of you who want to join on screen or on microphone, I have enabled that. So feel free to do that. So, welcome everyone to five tips for effective meetings with before we get started, I would like to acknowledge just know one is I’m actually on Dhubu-gu land in the Wiradjuri nation here in Dhubu. But I know that we’ve got quite a few of you joining from that, as I mentioned from WI and from New South Wales. And I think we’ve even got someone from Queensland as well tonight with us as well. So fabulous to have you here. And thanks for joining, just had a few popping the webinar. So for those of you have just popped in, if you’ve got any questions as we go along, just feel free to add those into either the public chat or the presenters chat. And if you’d like to join me on screen, feel free to open your microphone and or your video as well. So five tips for effective meetings. I’d like you to really think about a meeting that you’ve had. Even maybe the past few meetings that you’ve you’ve had or that you’ve been in. And I’d like you to think about, you don’t have to answer all of these four questions, but I’d like you to think about and share with us, what did you enjoy about that meeting? There might’ve been something in particular that stood out for you. It might’ve been a process, or the way that the chair in the meeting. I also would like you to think about what you gained the most during the meeting, and then you’ve probably got those other points, what annoyed you and what did you find boring? So it’d be great to share some of that term. The reflection from meetings that you’ve had over the last a few meetings. And to share some of those comments with us. I know for me, you know, what engages me the most in meetings is really interesting conversation. I’d love to get involved in when there’s a topic that you know is a quite a topic of, we have on the table, we’ve got a decision to make. There’s a few factors that we need to think about. And what I really love is I love the ability to sit down and to hear from others about what their thoughts are, what their opinions are, or what information they have to bring to the discussion to help us make a more robust informed decisions. So that’s certainly something that engages me the most. And in some ways for me, I know that I get a lot more value in those conversations. And sometimes they’re actually conversations that shouldn’t happen at a board or committee meeting. They really should happen at a subcommittee meeting. So it’s also important for me to know when I’m getting into too much detail and when I need to pull back a bit, ’cause otherwise I’ll probably annoy someone they thinking Natalie is talking the whole job. What annoys me, I guess, is the just the lack of process and the lack of progress. Those meetings where somebody says, oh, we had this on the action plan, did anyone do that? You thinking it’s been three months already, could somebody else perhaps do this job? So what for you, what are some of those things that you might find? And again, you can pop this into directly chat directly to me in the presenters, or you can pop that in public. So for you want some of those things that come out. Some of these are prominently also covered on these slides. So what do people want in meetings? Let’s start with a positive first. They want participation. So they want to feel engaged. They want to feel like they’re actually participating in the meeting. They want the meeting’s purpose to be clearly defined. And this is a really valuable one. I’m going to introduce you to what I call the five tips for effective meetings. And it actually starts with purpose. Why are we even holding the meeting? We’re not holding the meeting just simply because it’s the regular monthly meeting. There has to be a purpose to this meeting, and to why we’re actually gathered here and spending our time, particularly as volunteers giving out just as some of you doing in learning here at night or during the day, giving up your time to that meeting. They want to make sure that each item on the agenda is being addressed. And also add to that, that a consideration for each item on the agenda being addressed is also that giving it adequate time, something I’ll talk about a little later as well. They want to make sure that it’s follow up action. Now I say that a meeting is for decisions. You’re going to have discussion of course, friendly debate perhaps as well. But the key thing is that you think to make decisions and look, something may not be ready for a decision because there needs to be further research, et cetera, that’s perfectly okay. But ultimately a meeting is there to continue progress and to make decisions. And so therefore of course, we want to make sure that there is a follow-up action that someone has ownership over what that action is. To recall the discussion. And I’m going to talk about minute taking as well. That’s really important. In the discussion part, I’m going to talk about that when we get to minutes. Because when you think about discussion, if you are recording the discussion, well, that’s a little bit like a record of conversation, which is not what’s needed. What’s needed in minutes is the pros and cons of the discussion and then what the action was. So I will talk about that. And so the recording of discussion component here is so that let’s just say you missed last month’s meeting, or you missed the last weekly meeting or whatever it might be. The recording of discussion is about knowing if you’re reading the minutes about knowing what the discussion was. What were the pros of the conversation, the foreign against et cetera. So having some sort of idea around the key things that came out in discussion. Inviting the essential people, there’s nothing worse than looking at the agenda and the person that actually proposed that agenda point isn’t there. It’s about making sure that the right people are in the room, but equally it’s about making sure that you’re not over-inflating the number of people you need for that meeting. And what I mean by that is if you’ve got a committee or a board meeting, obviously those people, the committee and board members need to be there as does the ex-officios, and perhaps any other key management staff, for those of you that have a staff, but for everybody else, those essential people is that’s who needs to be there for the committee and board meeting. But if you’re having a brainstorming meeting, perhaps not all of those people need to be there, it might only be those people that are particularly interested. Let’s just say in the fundraising discussion that you’re having. So it is about sign what’s the purpose of the meeting, and who needs to be here. And of course, that agenda, publishing agenda so everybody knows what’s happening and what’s expected. These are some key points of around a certain survey around negative, may be characteristics of the kind of things we don’t want to see. Drifting from the subject. I’m sure you’re kind of reading this list and going, oh yeah, I agree with that one. Yes. I’ve been there. So I think we’ve all been to those meetings where you decide. Hmm, yep. Yes. That’s not the things that we want. What I really do challenge you to do one of the things when you get a group of people together, that’s really important to outline is what do people expect? And so I’ve really challenged you to have those conversations with people, particularly in your regular meetings, your committee and board meetings. And just ask them for everybody here, what do you believe is a really great meeting? What do you like about meetings? You all go back to those four questions. I’ll bring those up. There we go. But go back to those four questions and just have a discussion around those with your team, with your volunteers, and really understand what makes for them. What do they believe a good meeting looks like? And one of the things that I don’t want to see, all the things that are likely to demotivate them, and decrease their engagement at a meeting. So that’s a great one to ask. Get an understanding and then you can start to think about okay, what does our meeting need to look like? Now, this is what I call the five tips, or I really should call it the five Ps. And this is really what we’re going to be focusing on for the rest of the session. So for meetings, it’s about purpose. It’s about people, process, papers, and the preparation. Now you should all be able to download. I’ll start again. Download is what I meant to say. You should all be able to download those handouts and you’ll find those near the chat, just with the word, handout. So if you click on handouts, you should all be able to see those. Let me just have a look. I’ll just ask for some reason, I can’t actually see that they’ve appeared. Just give me a minute. I’m just going to load all of those up for you. The presentation, I did do this earlier. Don’t you just love technology? It’s fabulously will and all the time is it doesn’t okay, beautiful. So you’re going to have three handouts. I’m actually going to do those. So you’ll have the presentation, but I’ve also got templates for you and which I’ll show you shortly. One that’s blank and one as a sample. So you’ll now be able to download those. Goodness knows why they didn’t come through, but they’re there now, so that’s great. So these are kind of the five P’s that I’m going to be taking you through. What I have also given you is I plan a template and you can use this to think about what’s happening in your meetings to, think about what you need to, the key points that you need to think about in each of those five. This is so you’ve got this in your handouts. This is a filled out one, just with some prompts, but I’ve also given you a blank one as well. So feel free to share these. These are completely provided under creative common licence for you to use and modify. So let’s go through and have a look at these five Ps and get started. So purpose, people, process, papers, and presentation. We’re going to start with purpose. We should always start with purpose when you think about our meetings, it is being very, very clear on why are we even holding the meeting? What is the purpose of the meeting? You also need to think about what the outcome is that you want from that meeting. Now, for some of you who are staff in organisations, from your perspective, your purpose and your outcomes might slightly differ perhaps to the board or the committee. So it’s worthwhile having and that’s where it’s a really good idea to have a collaborative approach to developing meetings. So having a chat with the chair, having a chat with secretary, whoever it is, that’s helping develop the agenda, and developing the business papers for the meeting, having a chat with them about, we know that we meet monthly, but why do we meet monthly? What do we hope to achieve? These are also valuable questions to ask those again in your board and committee as well. What’s the purpose of the meeting? It’s also important if you have a meeting that is a split meaning, and I’ll give you an example here. For smaller organisations where I don’t have the staff capacity, it might just be purely volunteers. You’re going to find that your conversation is operational in nature, because it’s about doing things. And small details in the budget, but you also need to make sure that equally in that meeting you give space and time to have those strategic conversations. So those conversations where it’s about, how are we going with our plans, where are we heading, checking in on that progress, how’s our funding agreements that strategic level process. So in that situation, for example, we would have a purpose and outcome for our operational matters, why we’re discussing them, why it’s important? But equally we’d have a purpose and outcome for a strategic matters that we’re discussing. So, and a really great idea if that sounds like you is actually to split your agenda into operational matters and governance and strategic matters. It can really help one of the hardest things for those of you who kind of sit on that fence, if you like between operational and strategic, it really helps set an expectation for people around where you want them thinking. You know, where you want their minds to be. It can be rather difficult otherwise, because you’ll have people that should be talking about strategic matters, but they’re straying into operational because it’s in the nature of discussion. And so it’s really useful to read or write from a strategic perspective, let’s look at this agenda point and these are the things that we really want to focus on, and the outcome that we want. And I think you also need to think about those energy levels that you need. Energy levels of sitting all day and then doing training at night, we always make sure we have a cup of coffee, or a cup of tea and have food before. For example, just to give us a little bit of a lift. The same with meetings, Most of volunteer run meetings or rather perhaps during lunchtime or it’s going to be after work. So you need to think about the energy levels you need for the people that are in your meeting, and to achieve that purpose. So for example, if we’re going to do a brainstorming meeting, or if we’re going to have a creative meeting, I try and do that before lunch. Because I know that even sort of that morning teaish time, if I’m going to have a conversation with someone and not eat their best thinking, I’ll usually do it after morning teaish. If I can, or if it if I have to do it at night, then I make sure that they’re fed and warded so to speak. Got a little bit of the perhaps some lollies or something to give them a bit of a sugar lift, because I really need them to have their best thinking. So think about those energy levels and how you can really encourage those when you’re considering your purpose, and the outcomes that you want for your meetings. Well, I made note there where appropriate seeking put into that process. That’s just about checking in with others of course, what their expectations are. And just making sure that we’re sharing that information ahead of time. So people can prepare. I’m going to talk about preparation a little bit later, but I just wanted to mention that now, one of the key things that can help in that purpose aspect, why I’m itching now is because if we make it known ahead of time, what the recommendations are or what the decisions that have got to be made, you’re starting to help them think about the purpose and the outcomes of the meetings. So you’re starting to really sit the same and guide the framework for those expectations. In thinking about that purpose, what are some of the things jumping the chat share freely, what are some of the things that you see that you believe really help and really add value as well? When you’re starting to think about, well, why are we having this meeting? What are the outcomes of the meeting? Feel free to share that with everybody in the chat. We’re going to move on to our people section now. I’ve mentioned this a little earlier. It’s really vital to stop and say, well, who needs to be in the room I’ve been to a lot of sort of brainstorming planning meetings, for example. And there are people that should be in the room that just aren’t there. And I’m not just talking about people that because of their title, I’m talking about, let’s just say you’re having a brainstorming meeting around marketing, but there’s no one there that has some marketing knowledge. And I’m not saying you have to always get mixed but it could just be voluntee who has experiencing doing a event marketing. Now that’s great because there’s someone there that has that marketing know-how. Where I’ve been to meetings and as a facilitator, I’m actually the one feeling that gap and that’s not what we want because that’s coming from my position of learning and what I believe the organisation might want. And not that I do them very, very careful not to direct the traffic, so to speak are very careful to make sure that it’s their thoughts coming out. But it easing bulletin to make sure that you think about given our purpose and the outcomes we want, who should be in that room? If you’ve got a committee or a board meeting or a closed operational meeting. And there is a particular skill or a particular experience that you may want, then maybe it’s about saying, do we bring them in, perhaps, to give us a talk about something. I’ve got a one I’m doing with not-for-profit and they want to talk about how they run their meetings as an organisation to really talk about the detail of the meetings and the expectations. And so they’ve asked me to come in and give just a talk, a 15 minute talk about the highlights. I don’t know how I’m going to keep it to 15 minutes, but it’s going to have to be about the highlights, and the things that they should think about for meetings. But then it’s about them having that conversation. I’ve been approached obviously for the information and knowledge, like I’m sharing that short amount of time just to get them thinking. And that’s what I mean by ensuring that if you need that skill and experience, you can bring them in before the meeting. They don’t need to be there during the operational, but I can certainly add some opinions and some thoughts into some different experiences such as to think about that. Engagement really is key. It is important to think about how you want your people to feel. The emotions that you might want them to experience. If there’s a touchy topic, if there’s something that you know that has to be discussed, and there might be some high emotions could be some debate, perhaps some patient debate, then it’s about saying, okay, how do we manage these in an appropriate way? Sometimes that can be simply about framing up what we’re talking about. So you can use a process to manage, and make sure manage the safety and the emotions of the people during the meetings. So it is important to think about that as well, as I say, particularly if there’s a sensitive subject coming up. Think about how people will engage, and give them those options for engagement, just because you like to engage a certain way. It doesn’t mean anyone else does. So for example, we’ve given you options of popping your video on or leaving it all for popping in with your microphone, and having a one-on-one chat with me or not. We leave that up to everybody that engages in these online workshops, so that it’s your choice and that gives you greater control and does help you engage rather than feeling like you’re forced to do it a certain way. And that’s also important for online meetings as well. Really it is about and I know that we’re very lucky with back to face-to-face meetings, and I’m also socially distancing where we’re still a lot closer, and able to engage a lot more effectively than certainly a lot of other countries. But when you think about that engagement some people still like to do the Zoom. Some people still like to do online meetings, even though the rest of the meeting participants are face-to-face. And so it is about saying, okay, well, what, how do they want to engage? And how do we give them those options to engage in a way that they feel comfortable in doing? And if we want the best from our people, it is about thinking about putting them first and making sure that is best as possible, of course, that we can enable that. Making sure that there are options for discussion and connection. That they’ve got an opportunity to say hi and to chat or not if they choose. For example, usually there’s meetings Nicholas says is quite engaging and then we’ve got others that are simply like, no, no, I’m just happy just to hear and not to actively participate. Again, provide the opportunities, but don’t force that discussion connection. Think about how you can involve them as well. Are there any roles that you can give them, particularly at meetings, if it’s not a structured meeting where titles and the roles are important. So if it’s a structured board or committee meeting, of course you have chair of your organisation or president if you use that term who chairs the meeting. But do you find them to chair the meeting? I’m going to come back to that one because not always do they actually need to be the meeting chair. So perhaps it might be useful in certain meetings to actually give everyone else a chance, have what we call a rotating chair where one month, Natalie does it, the next month Akmari is going to do it, the month after that we’ve got Lynn doing it. So it’s a rotating chair. And that’s how we make sure that not only we can engage people, but they’re actually there understanding what the meeting roles are as well. And they’re involved a lot more in the targeted discussions also. The other one it is so important, isn’t it? And it’s really, really valuable when we’re in the same community or the same social group, or whatever it might be where we get to know people on a personal level. But if you’re involved in meetings that are people right from across Australia, for example, I did one the other week, we had 85 people from every state in Australia, I’m just sitting here thinking, I don’t think there was a state missed. I think we had every state in Australia, 85 people on a session, and we put them into, it was an online meeting and we put them into breakout rooms, just so they’re going to have a personal chat and at least feel personally connected with each other. It was an all-day meeting so of course we had the term, and that was a way for them to I feel like they were able to communicate with some other people one-on-one as well. The other thing that’s so important about that personal connection is that when people know somebody, they can see how they might phrase something. So they really do think about how their words are being delivered. And likewise, if they know someone, and that person is really straightforward and they’re direct then they know that’s just how they are. Whereas someone who doesn’t know a person, and they’ve been asked a really straightforward direct question or they’ve a person has said, no, no, I don’t think that’s the way to do it because of this. They might think, oh gosh, that’s a bit harsh, isn’t it? But actually that’s just how that person is. And that’s how they communicate. It’s about saying that I like your ID. So that’s another great reason why it’s really helpful to get those personal connections, and to understand how people are and how they communicate. And that really does help to build that empathy. I’ve done some, because we do do online, of course. I’ve put some online information in here that zoom, doom, and gloom, knowing that some of us are a big fatigued. Now, zoom, doom, and gloom in that 2020. The end of a tough year. Some do still feel a little bit like that. So if it is online just make sure that we’re speaking clearly. And slowly, of course, particularly if it’s a complex topic. If you talking about something, that’s a compliance area that has legislation. If you’re talking about a process, then have a visual diagram, which can help as well, because it can help orient people to where you are in that process as you’re going through it and have reference points as well, just some really simple things to do. And just to check, understanding and check if anyone has questions as you go along as well? A really good idea is to have breaks every 20 minutes, particularly if it’s an hour meeting or a 45 hour meeting or something like this, which is delivered in, it is sort of a 45 minute to an hour session and people understand, then they’ll sit us on that time. But if it’s a meeting that goes over that, then think about having just a short energy break every 20 minutes, but particularly if it is online or mix things up, if it’s online as well. So, factor that in, and that’ll also help as well. Another thing I just a couple of points on that. I did mention this early. I give people the opportunity to consider how they wish to engage in meetings. Some people just don’t want to be on camera, and again, we’ve had a few extras joining us on the session. So I’ll just repeat if you’d like to jump on camera and microphone and participate that way, feel free to, I’ve enabled that. So you can just click the microphone and the camera icon to enable it, but don’t feel that you need to. And if you’ve got any questions or anything you’d like to share with anyone, please do that in public. We’ve got a few on with us tonight which is fantastic. And so it’s useful to share that, but completely understand if you’re just wanting to listen in, that’s not a problem at all. So thinking about that some people actually that whole thing around having six faces on camera in front of you can actually be a bit confronting. When you’re doing online sessions. You’re actually always focused. And an example of this is looking at my face and how I’m focused on the screen and focused on you, and talking directly to you, but that’s not naturally how we talk, isn’t it? If we were talking in a social setting, they’d be movements like this and we’d talk to each other, but then we’d look alike and we talk to each other but we might look up. These are just natural things that we do when we’re in social settings. So there’s a bit of fatigue when you’re actually having to concentrate or all these different people that are on the screen at once. So sometimes it’s useful again, think about the meeting and the purpose. If it’s online, you can actually then think about how do we make sure that we give the right environment? Maybe it’s about saying, okay, everyone Fred is going to present on this topic first. So let’s all go off camera while Fred presents, and then we’ll come back on camera and have a conversation. So there are the different ways that you can do that. It does create fatigue because as I’ve said, they’re the brains trying to assess and pick up multiple indicators. It’s something is trainers and facilitators. We really good at, we’re always checking in with people in the room, looking for those indicators, but that does create fatigue. So, and again, it’s okay to switch off the camera if you’d like. Now I just want to talk about when we talk about people in the right, people in the room, DeBono’s six thinking hats model is actually a really particularly if you’ve got a complex conversational decision to make. Something that might be sensitive. It might be a really big investment decision. For example, you were about to buy a building. It’s useful to use this as a bit of a guidance, just to say, okay, given the people in the room, who do we have the right skills and mindsets? Do we have the right people thinking about have we got the devil’s advocate or as it’s called now critical friend, have we got somebody there that’s really going to question what we’re doing? Not you why that, it’s just a challenging, it’s a respectful why not in a way that’s derogatory or negative, but it’s about saying, we want for this big topic. We want our best thinking in the room, and we want to make sure we’re doing the right thing. And if we’re missing something it’s far better for us to find out now, then make the decision and go, oh, why didn’t we think of that? Usually why you didn’t think of that is because you didn’t have someone in the room that was focusing on that area. And particularly when you talk about a wonderful social sector, when you’ve got a group of well-meaning people coming together. Generally speaking, they’re there for the right purpose. I’m not saying that all boards and committees are group think, but sometimes you get into that. Oh yeah, no, we’re doing the right thing. We’re doing the right thing. But it’s so important to have somebody to say, well, hang on a minute. Are we doing the right thing? And so that’s just one example. And you could use this if you’re such a cohesive group and you’re really working well, you could use this to say, let’s just try something here. When we’re making this decision. And these guys are six hats. So let’s just assume we have a six people or seven, maybe that the chair is dependent. And you’ll ask them could you wear the red hat? And so could you think about perhaps the emotions connected to it? If you’ve got somebody that can think about the risk, if you’ve got somebody else that can think creatively. So these are ways that you can add value to your meeting to make it an effective meeting because you’re making more informed decisions. So it can be a useful thing. Actually, I’ll go back back to that. One of the things this can also be really useful for is if you have those highly emotive conversations. I’ll give you an example. Let’s just say, it’s a community centre that says, no, we need to stop our information service. And you’ve got quite because, what’s not funded and we can’t afford it, we don’t have the resources. And you’ve got that’s half of the room, and you’ve got the other half of the room going, no, but that’s why we’re here. Like we’re here to provide a community service. We’re here to do this. So you’ve got a highly emotive conversation. You could use this as a framework to work through that conversation. And just what are the key dot points that are coming up for every point? Conflicts and personalities. This is always an interesting one, isn’t it? You might have somebody that’s a dominator. You I’m going to give you a couple of little tactics for these. And again, feel free to jot those down and just share yours. Or if you’d like to ask a question, you can do that in the chat panel just directly to me. And I’ll make sure that I’ve had a couple of. I’ve made sure I’ve addressed some of those things as I’ve gone along. So if you’ve got anything, anything do that in there. I’m going to give you a couple of little tips and strategies for some of these. Dominate, what do you do if somebody is dominating? Well, there’s a couple of different things you could do. You could make sure that you put a meeting process in, it’s probably called standing orders. And that means that this is the way we run our meeting. And that might be everybody has a minute to comment on that particular topic. And so therefore you’re making it very apparent. We’re actually sharing the conversation, and then you need to have a chair and look if your chair isn’t strong, because the reality is that not everybody has the knowledge and experience to be a chair. It’s something that does take a little bit of learning, doesn’t it? It looks sometimes it’s the chair, that’s the dominator as well. So these pulling people up, isn’t just about, it’s just the chair’s role. It should be everybody’s role. If I was in a meeting and the chair was dominated, for example, now we’re having a conversation. Then I would just respectfully in a way that was appropriate. Just say, I’m really thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions on this matter. What I understand is that these are the key things that you’re thinking about, thanks for that. But I’ve actually really liked to hear from everybody else. And then I would why direct that conversation? Now this can certainly happen in community meetings where there’s no structured process that the chair is in control. But when it’s something like parliamentary proceeding. So this example would be like a council meeting. If you’ve ever been to a council meeting or a more formal public meeting where you actually, the chair does control the meeting, and you actually have to direct your conversation through the chair. So it doesn’t work in that situation. But for many of us, many of our meetings are collaborative stall out. We are there as a group, we’re here to do good for our community, and we want to make sure that happens in the best way possible. So strategy for that is, thanks I’d like to hear from someone else. Negatives, if you find someone that’s negative, negative, negative, negative, The language here is important interesting. I always like to say interesting points. That’s an interesting point. If I said what was the important point, or that was a great point. You’re actually validating those points and they may actually not be based something that requires validation. It might be so negative that they’re completely a failed. So it’s not about validating their points. It’s just simply about saying thanks for sharing. So thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, but what about the other side, you’ve shared what you don’t like, but what do you like? Try and flip that conversation, get them thinking about the positives in that idea. You might have someone that’s full of ideas. They’re oh, I’ve got an idea for this you let’s do that. Bring them back to the plan. That’s a great idea. The time to talk about that is when we have our meeting next month and we actually review our strategic plan because at the moment, we’ve really got to focus our resources on this area. Well, you could also do, that’s a great idea. Can you just write up what it might look like, and bring it to the meeting. And then, perhaps we can talk about it at the next meeting or in a couple of meetings time. Some people are so great at coming up with all these ideas and talking but the actual doing part can lack. So that can be another great strategy that for there. Again, there might be some that always has an objection to something. A great one to do for that one. Particularly if your chair is, if you know that somebody is always going to object, then have a conversation with them prior to the meeting. Is there anything here that you can say that doesn’t work? Is there anything here that what you’re looking at, those people that have objections are what I call negative and that’s where I’ve really clearly split those. Because those people that have objections sometimes are those critical friends. Those that there’s people that think, oops, sorry. Those people that really think about, oh, but what about this? It’s not that they’re negative. It’s just more that they’ve got. Yeah, but have we thought about this? So that they’re actually really insightful, and I think a really great connection for us to have to say, what else do we need to think about that we perhaps haven’t covered before we get to the meeting? The other one might be those people that don’t participate. Now I’ve put this in with conflict and personalities because people that don’t participate can be challenging in themselves. They might just be the person that doesn’t participate in the meeting and just goes along with it. But then in the car park, they’re saying, what a rubbish idea. So it’s important to make sure that those people that are silent are also engaged. Sometimes they’re just silent because they think what you’re doing is great. And they don’t feel like they have anything to add because things that I thought about have already been covered. And so in that case, it’s useful to ask them, perhaps, maybe not the first person, because I might not be the talking because maybe they’ve got a little bit of shyness and is about maybe the second person that you asked to speak might be that person. So that’s great, Mary. And what are your thoughts, Jane? What are your thoughts on this? Is there anything that you’d like to add to the conversation at this point? So just encourage them there. Let’s talk about process, whose role, who’s got to do what. There is what we would call best practise. And there are regulatory responsibilities that we have to make, you knew that was coming, didn’t you? The law is definitely in there. And so it’s important that we make sure we do that, but there’s also that other side, which is expectations as well. So it is really important to have a bit of a framework. You know, if I’m new to a committee or a board, or if I’ve got a new team then I like to know like, oh, who’s doing what and whose job’s what. It helps me place where I am and what we’re doing, and what’s going on. So it doesn’t have to be fancy. If you’re a small group that at least just dot points, it could be one pager, this is what the meeting chair does. This is what the vice chair does, et cetera. The legal side to this, the statutory side to this go and have a look at your constitution for those organisations that have a constitution. And look even a business. You have a constitution for your business as well for your company. Sorry, I should say, even a business it’s a company, social enterprise, it’s a company as well as nonprofits, you’ll have a constitution. And those constitutions will give clear guidelines around what the roles and responsibilities are for people. And what you need to think about is, but what does that look like in a meeting context? So I’ll give you an example of a responsibility that somebody might not be aware of. That is a legal responsibility. And that is for your president or your chair to sign an official record of the meeting. And of course, I’m talking about the meeting minutes. So let’s just say we’re in the May’s meeting, and we’re looking at the April minutes. And if they’ve been approved then the chair signs those. And that thing becomes an official record of the meetings. So that’s one thing that some of you might not be aware of. Another one that some of you may not be aware of is that the responsibility of the secretary or public officer, if you use that term most for most it’s covered under the secretary. But the secretary has a copy of any conflicts of interest. And they’re presented at each meeting. This is what we call a conflict of interest register. So that’s a secretary’s responsibility. And so it’s important to go through and think about the people in the room, the roles they apply, have a look at the constitution, what are the statutory roles and responsibilities of these people that are in the room. And then what are the expectations that we have of them? One I want to make on vice chair is sometimes that’s such an under utilised role. So, usually they’re kind of like the, if the chair is absent, they step in, but that’s pretty much what they do. Think about the roles and responsibilities of the president or the chair. And thinking about how the vice chair can actually help carry some of that load, particularly around those expectations paces. So for example, it might be before the meeting, the vice chair a week before the meeting might just do a ring around, particularly if you’re a more volunteer-based organisation when everyone’s doing. And they’re involved in that doing pace. Vice chair might just ring everybody and just say, well, just checking, how are you going with that? I just wanted to make sure we’ve got a bit of a deadline on this project. I know that there’s an action following that we’ve got to do a week. So just checking in with you, how that’s going. I know in the early days of meetings, I would be like, Ooh, that meeting is on tomorrow. Oh my gosh, what am I going to do? What was on my action plan? And I’d be like, quick get that done. I’d have to find quickly five hours or two hours, or whatever it was to do that job. So the vice check in helping that volunteer type situation, and particularly with new board members that maybe are used to kind of having to report at meetings as well. Got a great, oh dear. I just popped out, didn’t I? That was very weird, sorry, that was me and my mouse. Just I’m just going to pop back in. Just give me a minute. I’m just going to fix my setting here. Here I am my gosh. Sorry about that. That was funny. Funny in a kind of a scary way. I hit the back button on my browser. There’s a great question. I’ll get to in a moment. Cate say, having shared issues, did I thought it was on my end? Yeah, no, you’re right, Cate, it’s all on me. That’s it, it’s one thing that check, isn’t it? It’s definitely going to, you have to add in a little extra consideration for that. So I will get to that minute. It’s such a fantastic question. Just a couple of points on these next series of slides are just more useful for you when you’re thinking about, particularly about the format. Some meetings you need to think about the designing of the experience. So in some of these, I mentioned earlier things like, mixing the format out. Making sure people are awake and pretending to accidentally exist at all. That could be one designing moments of connection. Thinking about how you handle distractions, and particularly if it’s online, are there other ways people can engage? So we might have an online meeting, but we might have a survey as well, for example, that people can contribute to, because we know that these brainstorming meeting is not going to catch everything that they would like, same with the face-to-face. If it’s a brainstorming meeting, here’s the note pad, everyone, as we’re going through the day, just jot down anything else that you think of. And we’ll spend some time or if there’s not time, we’ll actually talk about it at the next meeting. Let’s talk about agendas. And then we’re going to get to minutes as well, the records of the meeting. So what should we have on agendas? Look at minimum on your agendas. We should make sure that we have what is being discussed. And I ideally you should also think about time as well. It’s amazing how much I’m looking here, for example, we had a session for an hour and we’ve got, I think nine minutes to go to talk about this topic. If you actually have a timeline, you’re more likely to want to make sure that you meet the attendees expectations around that meeting. Are there other ways to present the agenda, think about that. maybe you could group things into, well, these are items that we have to discuss. So we’re going to spend a big chunk of the meeting on this. But for this part of it, these are items that we simply just need to make a decision on. So that could be how you’re presenting the agenda. You don’t have to think about the agenda as the standard old typical agenda. You’ve got to make sure that there are things on there like, you should have a conflicts of interest declaration. That’s an important one. And again, it comes back to legislation. And so it’s a simple thing around having, are there any conflicts of interest that anybody has with any item on the agenda? And so if you just read that out at the start of the meeting, we are going to run conflicts of interest webinar as well as. So if you’re interested in that further, we can have a conversation. That’ll be a separate women are coming up in, I think that in the month we’ve got that planned four a month to six weeks, so you’ll hear about that. But are there any conflicts of interest on the agenda? The other things that we need to make sure we have is what is the business arising? So what was the things that we said we were going to do last month that we should be doing this month? You should also have apologies. Now, apologies if someone just isn’t there and they haven’t shown up and nobody knows where they are. That’s not an apology. That’s an absence. It’s actually, to be honest, if I’m going to be really technical, it’s leave without approval. LLA. So they’ve gone. Nobody knows where they are. They haven’t told us where if they’re going to come or if they’re not going to come. So it is important to make sure that when you think about apologies, is that actually an apology or we just for some organisations I know particularly volunteer on it you’ll be just happy if people come and engage, and you don’t want to put those extra things, and those extra processes in place. And I understand that. If you starting to get drop-off and you, you haven’t got engagement, well, you can lose people anyway. So it’s really important to make sure that as much as possible, give them that responsibility that they have to actually report. There’s nothing that says, oh, Natalie, didn’t give an apology. Then looking at minutes of the agenda and may seeing my name saying, no apology. I’m like, oh, shivers. Maybe I’ll need to next month actually apologise. Whatever it is that I’m not going to come, I need to make sure I tell them in advance. So there things that we definitely have on the agenda as well. These couple of slides are around online. Sometimes, particularly if there’s cameras and everybody is muted, you can actually use visual ways of engaging. So for example, if there was four people on and someone wanted to speak. you would go as a facilitator or the meeting chair go to the first person that has number one. Then you go to the second person, third person, et cetera. You could also how’s everyone’s feeling, have we had enough discussion about this topic? Are we happy to make a decision? This could be a, yep. Let’s make a decision. We’ve also got the old yay. We’re excited. We agree. There’s a video. I just can’t remember that I just showed but it’s escaped me at the moment. It’s one of those music shows and the sun is beautiful lady who has a hearing impairment, was on stage and she’s a singer. And I think she introduced most of the world to this cheering. Yay. That’s a great idea. So that’s in that it’s not Oslo, which is the Australian sign language, but it’s in the U.S, I think so. That could be the sign. Yeah we agree, we’re really excited. So you just sit those what does this look like if this is how we want to do this process, how will we engage? You could do a temperature check. How’s everyone feeling. Do you want a break? Yep, I definitely want a break on kind of at my limit versus I’m pretty good let’s continue on. What I call the Roman voting. No, that’s not I don’t vote, or I’m voting against that, or yes, that’s a vote. So you can also do that. Of course, if you’re using visual signs, the other thing to make sure that you do, if it’s a thumbs up, then it’s also about making sure that you say, okay, just confirming we’ve got five, five that are voting yes, and we’ve got one against. So just make sure that you’re doing that if you do that in that format. So let’s talk. I’m back. I’m so sorry. My wonderful mouse is playing up. I’m going to have to get that changed. I just exited yet again. Sorry about that little tech hiccups there. First time I’ve ever done it, particularly twice in once. That’s in one session. That’s very unusual. So let’s talk about minutes. Can the minutes be electrically signed? Can I be acknowledged via email is John, correct? Look, you certainly can’t be one thing that you’ve got to think about is how do we prove that if there’s a question. So are you could use an electronic signature? The challenge does come with that is, if it’s electronic, of course, anything can be changed. I could, and I’ve done this. I’m actually chair of the New South Wales Tourism Awards and I’ve sent my signature so that she can actually attach it to documents. Now who’s to know what else she decides to attach that to, of course, she’s going to follow the right process, but you get my meeting around. If somebody has a copy of your electronic signature. Adobe does that quite well. There’s a couple of other software programmes that do that. Someone sends me a PDF file and I actually go into my Adobe and I actually sign it with my again, it’s my actual signature. There are also electronic signatures as well you can use, which actually give you a code and tracking. So is a bigger larger organisations that can afford that software that’s what they use. But for most of it’s just using Adobe, you can actually use that. That is still valid and still recognised. What it’s about is making sure that during, if we’re let’s just say we’re May meeting and we’re looking at our April minutes. Well, our April minutes should be marked as draught because they’re actually not minutes of the meeting. They’re not that because they haven’t been approved. So they should be marked as draught because it’s not until they’re actually approved and signed and looks some organisations, particularly those that make remotely, they not only meet they might do electronic signature, some don’t though they like paper copies. So they might only meet every six months. And then the chair has six months worth of minutes to sign. The important thing is that, that you work out what your process is, but you make it very clear what the official record is. What’s the official document. And of course, think about access to the minutes. Can they be easily changed? Could someone go in and modify it? As I said, with software these days you could do anything. As we know, I could colour my hair purple with software. I could take somebody’s signature of it. I could change a figure on what I’ve said the cash app thing figurines in minutes. Unfortunately if people are doing the wrong thing. These are the types of actions that they do, do, and they will modify minutes. So it is important that you have a copy of the official record kept if you’re an organisation that has an office, that it has to be an office, if it’s on the cloud, then you make sure you have those security levels in place. So make sure that you do have them signed. I also added down a little. I actually like to have a little statement on the back on the bottom of minutes, which says the minutes are signed as a true and correct record of the meeting. And then they’re signed and then they’re dated. So you don’t have to do that. But as long as they’re signed. Then they become an official, best practise minute taking. I know that we’re at time, we’re going to be here just a couple of minutes, a couple of minutes there, thanks to my lack of being able to handle the technology tonight. But I’ve only just got a couple more things to share with you. Oops. So if we look at best practise minute taking. It’s not a recorded conversation. It’s not, oh Natalie proposed this. John said this. Akman said this. Israel said this. It’s not about that. It is simply about saying, if I was to summarise this discussion, how would I do that? Now, if you’re a chair, a really great strategy because your meeting facilitator is a chair. So a really great strategy is present the agenda, and able talking I always have, when I’m doing this, I always have a little note pad and I’ll write down some key points that people are assigned. Now, the secretary is actually participating in the discussion. They’re a board member, they’re a committee member. They’re not taking minutes. Not seeing that taking minutes as the chair, that’s my job. I’m just making some little dot points. That’s all I’m doing. We haven’t even started taking it where in discussion. And so what I would do is I’d enable that discussion, and then I’d say, okay, everyone to summarise. And at that point, the secretary knows this is their cue to take the minutes. Because the secretary records what I’m about to say. And what I’m about to present is a summary not he said, she said, blah, blah, blah. It is, so what we’ve had is a proposal to do X. The key points that have come out in conversation is the great things about this issue or this decision is bang, bang, bang. Some of the concerns or considerations are bang, bang, bang. And then the chair would say, so what I’m hearing is, and it could be, we need to do more research. It’s a goal. It’s going to go to vote, whatever it might be. Checking in with the people in the room. But the key thing is the secretary is only recording the summary. They’re not recording everything. And this is important, particularly in volunteer organisations, because that means they can participate in the conversation. I don’t know if anyone else has been secretary. I certainly have a number of times. Unfortunately, I’m able to record as well as take a moment to engage, but it’s a hard job, isn’t it? Even if you’re a good multi-tasker. So that can be really a really great way of getting the secretary involved. Do you have to have mover in a second, no. It just depends on your process. It depends on what process you would like. That mover and a seconder is what we call parliamentary procedure. West minister procedure, of course, it’s, again, if you think about your councils, it’s that kind of someone moves a motion that we do X, do we have a seconder for that motion? And if we do have a seconder, okay the motion is up for debate. So it’s a really formal, structured process. It’s a really good process, actually, particularly for meetings that might be again, that high emotion, a public meeting where you need to make sure that there is some control around the meeting and around the process, because you need to get things done, but in a more collaborative. A board or committee structure. You don’t need to do that. What I recommend in that structure is that you use these words. It was agreed that. Now let’s just say there are seven of us in the room and two people don’t agree, they vote, no, that’s fine. Their vote can still be counted. Maybe one person abstains from voting that can still be recorded in the minutes. But everybody else agreed. And we had quorum. And we’ve got the required number of people participating in the meeting. And the majority of people have actually agreed with this. So what we note down is was agreed that we would do X. Now, why do I recommend that? Why I recommend that is because what you are is you are a board in your committee. You’re actually wholly. Every single person is as responsible for decisions as the collective. Just because I didn’t make the decision. I voted, no, but you know what? The majority rule and that’s this is this thing called Robert’s rules it was like 1835 or something, it’s as valid today as it was then. And that is, everybody shall have a voice but the majority rules. And even if I’m not at the meeting, decisions are happening in a meeting. And the important thing is for me to understand if I’m not there is I’m still responsible for the decisions that are made at that meeting. So it’s really healthy to use that collective language. It was agreed that the committee agreed, the board agreed whatever it might be. Think about how you’re retiring records. I’ve talked about that official pace. Just want to touch on confidential. All of your records are confidential unless they’ve been designed for public release. So ideally they should actually be marked confidential. If I’m starting a board meeting, a committee meeting, then I would actually use the term, okay, it’s 6:40 and I’d like to start the confidential committee meeting for the fundraising event, whatever it might be. So I actually use those terms as well, because it helps people just think about that. If we’ve invited people to come and speak to us, then we make it clear. Everyone to the confidential part of the meeting is now closed. We’ve got X here to talk to us about X, and then we’ll go back into the confidential business. It just reminds people, we all know what it’s like, everyone talks shop out of shop out of but it shouldn’t be that way. What happens on the meeting should stay in the meeting. So it’s a really nice reminder that that’s the case sign is the minutes. Making sure that I have confidential minutes across the top as well. I’ve talked about minutes on the papers piece here is think about the papers that people need to support the information and the decisions. So what I want you to think about is how does the information they’re getting support, critical thinking, particularly if it’s a discussion. A heated discussion, a big decision that’s got to be made. Think about the information, the decisions that are being made. How do you show that they link back to the purpose of the organisation or your strategic direction. How can you help them understand that that is aligned to that strategy. Where we’re not too far away from wrapping up. So if there’s any other questions please chat that, pop that up. There’s been few private Q&A’s, that’s great. Sorry. I’m just having a look key. Yup. That’s fantastic. And I am going to talk about that preparation as well. So I’ll get to that in a moment. So wonderful. So think about how the information you’re providing them with helps achieve the purpose of the meeting. If you’ve got something that actually is aligned to the purpose, something that doesn’t need to be discussed, then make it clear this is just for information only. It’s not for discussion. It’s simply just for information. One of the things that does help support that critical thinking piece is that if you’ve got a piece of information that you’re presenting, it could be a recommendation, make sure that the people that are reading it understand that you have looked at options. You have looked at alternatives, and this is why this is a recommendation. If you are providing this information, what you may get is people that aren’t ready to make a decision because I might think, oh, well, Natalie’s only looked at one thing, one option, but what are the other ways we can do this? So make sure that you consider how the information you’re providing them really does help them come to a decision because ultimately we would like them to read this information, wouldn’t we? To do that work, to think about it, to spend time so that when they come to the meeting, they are ready to make decisions. There are some things we might have to discuss, but ultimately we’ve got decisions to make. I’ve got the last point here is, think about what the essential information is they need to read. Make it known, send it out. And this actually is linking into this next topic, but I’m going to talk about it now. Get help them prepare. So if you’ve got a document that’s significant, you need them to spend time on it. It could be your draught budget you’ve got. You really want to make sure that they read it, then say to them, I’d like you to spend half an hour minimum having a look at the budget, and coming up with a list of questions that you’ve have and I’ll be asking you for those questions. Now it feels like there’s a bit of homework to do. Doesn’t it, this not necessarily a bad thing, because you’re actually setting an expectation and you’re helping them do their job. Some people might get papers and go, oh, you’re yeah. That looks good. And then they get to the meeting and they’re like, oh, sure I actually read that properly. Oh, I don’t really have anything in tribute. So you’re actually just helping them. Think about what information is interesting and useful, but not necessary. Again, this is just for information only. We don’t have to discuss it. Also think about particularly when you’ve got things like your financial reporting. A lot of financial reporting for example, is just what I would call transactional reporting. Last month this happened, that happened, that happened, There as the reports show, this is where we’re up to make balance is X. Yeah, look good, fine. But is it useful information that helps us make a decision not necessarily. Because way he making decisions today that affect our future financial position. So what happened last month is actually less relevant to us, to what is going to be happening in the next three months. Because we’re making a decision here that’s about future finances, and that’s what we call it, that analysis reporting. The business intelligence, if you like to help future decisions. So it could be, look, we’re noticing a trend in our electricity going up or in our rental agreement with council going up or whatever it might be. I think we really need to look at this line item in the budget and consider that trend might increase. That’s interesting information because that means I won’t overspend, or I won’t approve a decision that’s actually going to make us overspend. So just that last point on preparation, I’m just having a look at the questions to see if there’s any other questions, feel free to answer. It’s a great, I’ve had everyone stay with us, which is fantastic. Particularly given the time of day that we’re doing this. As I said to some of you early, we’re just trialling a few different days and times that’s always useful to know what day and times people would like these sessions, so this is great. So think about that preparation and what you expect people to have done when they arrive. Then you’ve expected them to have spent time looking at this business case or looking at the budget, or coming with questions particularly that time limit as I said, that can be really helpful. You know, just even if you don’t, even if you use the term not, we expect you to spend half an hour, you could use the term to say this shouldn’t take you any longer than half an hour, or this shouldn’t take you any longer than 40 minutes. That’s a nicer way that rather than a directive, isn’t it? Sometimes people might take a directive as on, okay, well, let’s, I’m only a volunteer like that’s a bit much. Whereas if we saw a look, it shouldn’t take you any longer than this time. That’s a bit softer. Think about the research and conversations they should have done to prepare for the meetings. So you could lead with, it’d be great if you would come with just one question that you have about this. You could perhaps research X, you could actually even give them some directives. So, Jack it could be great if you could look at the risks in this particular area. I’ve really appreciated, Sarah if you could look at grants to fund these particular project, whatever it might be, that can also help as well. It helps split that load. As I’ve said, have a discussion and just make those expectations clear. So what we’ve done is like I called it five tips but there’s always a lot of goal hidden in. And I’m just using other’s words here that they always said to me, oh, there’s always a lot of gold meddling in everything that you sharing and a lot of information. So we’ve gone through kind of five key areas, five tips of getting the purpose. Making sure you’ve got the right people with the right skills and knowledge, thinking about the process, your agenda, how you make decisions, thinking about the papers that you need to make sure that you get and gather to give them the information. Your financial reports, all of those things, and then making sure that you make it really, really clear what you expect them to have done in order to prepare for the meeting. As I’ve mentioned, and I will actually say this ’cause we did have some people come in after I mentioned this. I’ve done a meeting planner template for you. That’s available in the handout section. Also, you’ve got a copy of the presentation as well. I’ve got a blank one for you to use, but I’ve also got one that’s filled out with just a couple of considerations, a couple of questions there for you that to get the brain working. It can be a real helpful one pager just to think about what that is particularly if you’re a CEO and you’re getting together with the chair to think about what your next meeting is. I’m just having a look at the Q&A and the chat. I can’t see any other questions. I really hope you’ve enjoyed the session today. That is it for me we are done. Here’s my contact details. I mean, most of you will probably got those anyway. Thanks very much I love to get that feedback. Thanks very much for sharing some of that. And so, thank you. I’m sorry reading a private note as well. Really that’s excellent. I’m so glad that that’s helped you also. Most of you have got my details. I know I’ve got some on here from Juneau as well, as well wonderful. And those I think we’ve had a couple of it. A couple of extra community members from Juneau. You might not have my details, but no doubt. I’ve sent you and if not, I’m actually coming to Juneau soon. So you’ll see me very, very shortly. Hopefully if you’ve registered for the Juneau training that we’re providing. For those of you that are library members, I don’t think most of you, you will also see the recorded copy of this. I know there’s been a bit to go through. So you’ll actually get a recorded copy. It’ll be in the library late next week. We’ll actually send it out in the newsletter and let you know. So you can at will watch this again, and again, if you would like. And you’ll be able to sort of recap on some of those key points. As always, if there’s anything as you’re going through either, either thinking through what we covered in this session, or if you’re watching the recording as we speak. Then as always, if you’ve got questions, reach out, we’re here to help. And I click to learn and we really want to make sure that we really provide you with the skills, and the tools and knowledge to do the fabulous work you’re do in the community. You are all awesome. We love the passion that you will bring to your work and the passion that all the people in your organisations also bring to your work. And, there are sure passions sometimes can be difficult to managing meetings but some of those redirection some, and hopefully some of those strategies and tips that I’ve shared tonight will also help you with that as well. Thank you all for joining me. I’m going to close the webinar. Now I’m just having a look at questions. I can’t see any others. It’s been fabulous to have you all and participating. And I look forward to seeing you in the next session either face-to-face or on one of our next online workshops, talk soon.